PASCO Egg back at Air Sailing

[Larry Roberts]

In a recent email from Bob Spielman 09-05-2011

"Blackhawk recaptured the egg! And he got #31 OLC flight doing it even tho that was only part of his flying because he had to land at Truckee to get the egg."

That is all the details I know of for now.

[Pete (98)]

A few details of the flight: http://soaring-nv.blogspot.com/2011/09/what-day-nice-soaring-and-we-got-egg.html

[RamyYanetz]

Larry, are they aware that they should update the web site soon after the flight? In my opinion as long as it is not updated the egg was not captured. Someone could have flown from Williams to Truckee to capture the egg yesterday (was probably very doable) only to find out it was no longer there.
I propose few changes to the rules:
1 - The capture of the egg must be reported immediatly.
2 - If the egg is captured from 2 different locations the same day, it should go to the longest flight, not the first one to arrive.
3 - We should change the 100km minimum to something like 300km to make it a little more challenging. You only need one thermal to cover 100km in the Great Basin.

Ramy

[Peter Kelly]

I agree with Ramy on several counts.
I had already suggested we increase the minimum leg distance- if launching from a location with a an airfield below 500 ft MSL - that should change the min leg distance to 300k.

More importantly, we must change the reporting requirement - IMMEDIATELY!

I read that reference that Pete-98 provided above (thank you Pete).

It is clear that the air sailing bunch are not interested in keeping others informed.

I suggest we change the rule immediately that if the egg capture is not reported on the PASCO Web pages within 12 hours of capture and IF a second pilot lands the next day or some later day, at the last reported location of the EGG and the Egg is not there, then the one that took the Egg, but did not report it within 12 hours is obligated to send the Egg to the location represented by that second pilot.



For example, in this case,,,

If ASI captured the egg from Truckee, but did not report it for several days, and if a pilot from Minden flew into Truckee to capture the egg before it had been reported by ASI on the PASCO web pages, then ASI would be obligated to send the Egg to Minden and Minden would be the rightful caretaker of the Egg at that point.

Larry Roberts has done a masterful job of creating a simple and effective reporting system.
Thank you Larry for a job well done.

[RamyYanetz]

Agree about the reporting need.
As for the distance, need to think how to define it. Blow 500 ft may work for some cases but not others (Avenal is above 500 feet if I recall correctly). Maybe west of east of the Sierras? or above/below 2000 feet? There used to be similar rule for the Sawyer award in the past.
What about if the egg is captured the same day? I still think it should go to the longer distance.

Ramy

[Peter Kelly]

The reason the longer distance is not a good idea is that there will (hopefully) be different distance rules - depending on the elevation or location of the departure airport.

I am certain Avenal is below 1,000 ft MSL, so that takes care of all the valley airports.
Let's use 1,000 ft as the cutoff.
The Sawyer award had a correction based on field elevation - as you mentioned.
Capture flights that depart a location, where the field is below 1,000 ft MSL need to fly a minimum distance of 100km.
Capture flights that depart a location where the field is above 1,000 ft MSL need to fly a minimum distance of 300km

that should be rule change #1.


Distance should not be a factor in who gets the trophy - as long as it meets the minimum distance - whatever that is.

What does need to be done is to cancel the rights of the person who captured the trophy - but DID NOT report it.

It is a really big deal, very freaking annoying, to fly to a place the Egg was last reported to have been and to then find it was taken days before. It has happened to me twice in the past 20 years - one of which was that long flight from Minden to Avenal.

IF a pilot arrives at an airport to capture the Egg and it is not there, but the first capture had not been reported to PASCO the night before, then the Egg rightfully now belongs to the second pilot who flew in to capture it.

That should be rule change #2.

How do we make it a rule change????

Larry Roberts - any suggestions?

[RamyYanetz]

Agree. I still would expect that if someone flew say from Williams or Holliister all the way to Truckee to capture the egg only to find out that Lee just landed there an hour earlier, they still deserve the egg due to the length and complexity of the flight. But perhaps it is hard to make it a rule so hopefully it will be a honorary decision.

I can propose those changes in the next pasco meeting and than we can make the official change in the web site, but I suggest we ran it by the Airsailing folks first to make sure they understand and accept it. They are big promoters of the pasco egg so we don't want to piss them off :-)

Ramy

[morhall]

I thought I replied earlier, but must have had a session timeout or something. I'll try again.

I would vote to keep the 100km distance the same. To encourage less experienced pilots making the attempt it seems reasonable and for the very experienced pilots, 300km in the midst of summer isn't going to be a barrier to entry anyhow. Since the egg sat unclaimed for over a year, I'd say we can use all the participants we can muster.

I also would like to see length of flight used in the event of a same day capture attempt. Probably a rare occurrence, but better to call it out in the rules than leave it to chance.

Regarding reporting, we need some sort of automated reporting mechanism that works from mobile devices. I tried to post to the form on the Pasco site, but it wasn't iPhone compatible. I posted to this forum and to the egg hunters from Hollister since I knew that attempts might be brewing. I think that even the Pasco form requires Larry to do some manual work to make the entry public, so even a proper claim might not be made public in time for a Sunday attempt following a Saturday capture. Another yahoo/google group?

Morgan

[Larry Roberts]

My comments:
Distance:
I agree on the 100k minimum for all gliderports. Keep it simple. (Maybe I may want to try to get it, and I can go 100k on a good day). And the Egg did sit for a year, although there were a couple spectacular attempts to get it from Jim Wynhoff and Morgan Hall.
Two attempts on 1 day- the first come first served has worked. We did have a day where two pilots tried and failed. They could have both made it though, so a rule to cover that. The longest flight would be a fair default.

Reporting:
Yes, I agree that we need to report right away - maybe by midnight or 5 AM the next morning. We do not want someone to fly to the wrong airport because someone did not report it. I know that reporting is sometimes hard.

The current form is a "Flash" form to stop the spammers (bots can't see it as a form), but it is time for me to make it a regular form so those 3 people who pay the extra bucks use iPhones/iPads/iPods can post (make it 4 people, I have an iPod). Flash is SO much simpler for the web.

The only reason I knew it had been captured is that is was bundled in an email from Bob Spielman that covered lots of events for ASI that weekend, so I posted it on the PASCO website a couple days after the event.

So keep the 100k, add reporting requirements and a rule for multiple successful attempts on 1 day. My 2 cents.

[RamyYanetz]

Agree with Morgan and Larry.

Ramy

[Darryl Ramm]

I'd like to see the length of flight used as well... having missed out getting the egg on the day I flew from Hollister to Williams to be beaten by the team flight of boys from Byron :-)

Darryl

[Jim Wallis]

How would you guys feel about simply adding another capture trophy, but with different rules. The second trophy could be restricted to the western destinations (Williams, Crazy Creek, Byron, Hollister, Avenal, Montague). A third trophy could be restricted to Truckee, Minden and Air Sailing. That way we could have a greater ability to tailor the destination to the conditions and it would open up the game to pilots who aren't quite up to flying from Minden to Air Sailing via Oregon. :)

- Jim

[Peter Kelly]

I too agree with Morgan and Larry and I read those points as follows:

Keep the 100k min leg criteria
(no changes due to elevation of any airport)

If two successful attempts on the same day, then the one with the longest total distance (maybe using a single extra turnpoint ???) wins the Egg.

As for instant reporting - or should I say, reporting the capture before midnight of the day that on which it was captured, that is not an unreasonable rule - in my opinion.

We do all have telephones don't we? How tough is it for the capturing pilot to simply pick up, or borrow a phone after he lands, and ask a buddy to partially fill out the PASCO form that Larry has made available to all of us?

It couldn't be simpler.

We could even put the responsibility on the keepers of the Egg.

If someone takes the Egg from their glider port, then the people losing the Egg should be expected to complete the PASCO capture form.

Larry, maybe you need a form for the "losers" to complete. If a glider port has the Egg and someone comes in and claims it and they give it away, then the glider port who allows the egg to leave their custody should be required to complete a report. That seems simple enough to me. Every glider port that takes custody of the Egg should have an established procedure for immediately reporting when it is captured by someone else.

[Larry Roberts]

How would you guys feel about simply adding another capture trophy, but with different rules. The second trophy could be restricted to the western destinations (Williams, Crazy Creek, Byron, Hollister, Avenal, Montague). A third trophy could be restricted to Truckee, Minden and Air Sailing. That way we could have a greater ability to tailor the destination to the conditions and it would open up the game to pilots who aren't quite up to flying from Minden to Air Sailing via Oregon. :)

- Jim

Jim,
You forgot about Jean, NV. Jim Wynhoff flew from Jean to within a few miles of ASI and almost captured the Trophy. He had a fantastic flight, but it ended with a broken glider due to the rough field he landed in. (Jim was OK).
I think having one trophy makes it challenging enough to keep track of.

Peter,
Speak of keeping track of the trophy, it sounds like a good idea to have a very simple form that would actually post automatically when completed by the Gliderport LOSING the Egg.

Of course the spammers would find it in 2 minutes. The current flash form I am using on PASCO was due to the fact that I had a customer with a "contact us" form that was getting 1500-2000 spam posts per week and that was with a security challenge. I found this solution and it works great, except for Apple IOS devices.

[Peter Kelly]

...
....
Peter,
Speak of keeping track of the trophy, it sounds like a good idea to have a very simple form that would actually post automatically when completed by the Glider port LOSING the Egg.

Of course the spammers would find it in 2 minutes. The current flash form I am using on PASCO was due to the fact that I had a customer with a "contact us" form that was getting 1500-2000 spam posts per week and that was with a security challenge. I found this solution and it works great, except for Apple IOS devices.

Does the above mean that you COULD modify the current flash form, so that the losing glider port could easily report the loss of the Egg?
Let us know to, minimize the confusion - probably mostly in my mind.

If the modification of the current form works, then making it just a quickie report showing the date the Egg was moved and where it went to would be enough for an initial report.

You could make the other fields such as pilots name, and other details optional.

Seems like we at least need a rule change that says if the Egg is captured then it needs to be reported on at least one of the four major forum pages before midnight of the day of capture.
-----Truckee/ Region 11/ Hollister/ Williams.------
If it gets onto one forum, then the contents of the message will be reposted very quickly to the others as a cross-posting by someone.

[RamyYanetz]

Not sure about making the reporting required for the gliderport loosing the egg. They have no motivation to hurry up, so why bother? Only the one capturing the egg should be motivated to report immediatly otherwise it wouldn't count. I suggest not to change this rule, nor the form. An email to region11 yahoo group announcing the capture and requesting someone to update the form should be sufficient.
As far as who wins if it is captured the same day, it should go to the one coming from further, regardless of turnpoint. Williams to Truckee is a 200-300km flight, but much more deserved than a 300km flight from Airsailing to Truckee via a turnpoint. After all the one coming from Williams will most likely need to spend the night vs the one coming from Airsailing.

Ramy

[Peter Kelly]

Not sure about making the reporting required for the gliderport loosing the egg. They have no motivation to hurry up, so why bother? Only the one capturing the egg should be motivated to report immediatly otherwise it wouldn't count. I suggest not to change this rule, nor the form. An email to region11 yahoo group announcing the capture and requesting someone to update the form should be sufficient.

As far as who wins if it is captured the same day, it should go to the one coming from further, regardless of turnpoint. Williams to Truckee is a 200-300km flight, but much more deserved than a 300km flight from Airsailing to Truckee via a turnpoint. After all the one coming from Williams will most likely need to spend the night vs the one coming from Airsailing.

Ramy

I agree with Ramy - if both capture on the same day, the one who departed the furthest away is the winner - regardless of other turnpoints.

As for the reporting of the capture and the changing of the form, let's see what Larry and others say.
Seems like it could be part of the responsibility as Egg custodian to announce it is gone - but I don't have a strong opinion about that. Only that it needs to reported for sure on the day it is taken.

[Pete (98)]

We should keep the rules as simple as possible to encourage participation from all levels of pilots which was one of the original goals when the egg was started.

I agree with Ramy's points. I would add the following: the person who captures the egg should be the one responsible for sending an e-mail to the appropriate group address before 9 am the following day. Otherwise, the egg returns to the previous location.

[Larry Roberts]

OK, the discussion continues.
I definitely agree on keeping it simple. After thinking about it, I think it should be up to the capturing pilot to report it. I can change the form to make and make just the minimum required.

Also, as mentioned above, the Region 11 email is easy to send. Most of the active pilots are members of the group. I read the email about once a week, mainly scan the Subject. I have missed some discussions because the subject of the email does not get changed.

However, other contests have reporting requirements, so there is nothing wrong with having them for the PASCO Egg.

[Jim Wallis]

[QUOTE=Larry Roberts;938]Jim,
You forgot about Jean, NV. Jim Wynhoff flew from Jean to within a few miles of ASI and almost captured the Trophy. He had a fantastic flight, but it ended with a broken glider due to the rough field he landed in. (Jim was OK).
I think having one trophy makes it challenging enough to keep track of.


I didn't really forget about Jean - it just seemed to me that anyone flying from there to capture the Egg deserved a medal in addition to the Egg!

[Peter Kelly]

Jim - that's a good one....It is quite a distance....


.....anyone flying from there to capture the Egg deserved a medal in addition to the Egg!

Sounds like idea of having the gliderport report the loss is out. I too agree.

So can we all agree the pilot is required to announce on the Region 11 group that he/she captured the Egg?

The pilot can get this done by asking someone else to post the message on the Region 11Group for him,
but the message must be posted by what time? on what day?

And what are the consequences if the pilot does not meet the requirement?


Of course we should still expect the pilot to complete a flight report and update the Egg Pages within a few weeks of the capture.

[RamyYanetz]

I propose announcing on region 11 group by midnight the same day (and update the form if possible). No penalty otherwise, but the egg is not considered captured until announced, and if announced too late and someone else flew to the old place it will be considered successfull capture.

[Peter Kelly]

It sounds as though Ramy has summed up an enforceable rule.
short and simple.

Ramy, I agree that you should go to the PASCO Board next month and make that an official change (as you have said you plan to do).

[morhall]

From watching the spot tracks, it would appear that Ramy has captured the Egg for Williams. Unless someone else flew further.

[Peter Kelly]

Ramy had a good flight out of Williams today.
Up to 15,000 in the area of Yolla Peak.
Glided across the Sacremento Vly in the aea of Red Bluff.
Contaced lift west of Mt Lassen and went south towards Lake Almanor -
or at least that is what it sounded like he did, as I listened to him on the radio.

I asked him if he was going to Air Sailing for the Egg and he said "Somebody's got to do it"
An added incentive was that they had a big dinner planned at Air Sailing for tonight - Ramy said he couldn't turn that down.

So based on all of that I would say the Egg now belongs to Wiilliams.

Thanks Ramy, for bringing it home to Williams.

[RamyYanetz]

Following the discussion in this thread, the PASCO board approved the following additions to the PASCO Egg rules:
1 - The person capturing the egg (the "eggnapper") need to announce the capture to region-11 yahoo group by midnight, and update the online form as soon as possible. Otherwise, the egg is not considered captured until it is announced. So if someone flies to the next day to the wrong place since it was not announced by midnight will still be able to claim the egg.
2 - If multiple pilots claim the egg on the same day, the egg goes to the pilot flown from the furthest airport, even if they land last.

Larry, please update the web site when you get a chance, and I will follow with an email to region_11 yahoo group.

Ramy