Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 18

Thread: ADS-B Out Info -- think about ADS-B out installs over this Winter.

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Palo Alto, CA
    Posts
    136

    ADS-B Out Info -- think about ADS-B out installs over this Winter.

    For folks interested in ADS-B Out....

    The Trig TN72 GPS source now provides a nice option for many owners interested in installing ADS-B Out with a Trig TT21 or TT22 transponder. The TN72 is only ~$350 street price.

    The TN72 can be used to either do a 2020 Complaint ADS-B Out install (in experimental gliders only) or be used to a TABS (Traffic Awareness beacon System aka TSO-C199) install in any glider. TABS uses a lower-end GPS performance spec than full 1090ES Out, don't get me started on why the same TN72 can do fully 2020 Compliant ADS-B Out in an experimental aircraft and only TABS in a type certified aircraft...

    After 2020 you will need a "2020 compliant" ADS-B Out system in your glider wherever you are required to have a transponder now. Gliders are largely, but not fully, exempt from transponder and ADS-B Out carriage requirements. You will require ADS-B Out after January 1, 2020 for flight in gliders in Class A, B or C airspace or above the ceiling of B or C airspace up to 10,000', and possibly within some wave windows. [I'll post more on transponder and ADS-B requirements/airspace stuff in a followup post. Thanks for Jon Fitch and David Ansiman for correcting stuff I had here before, and David reminding me of out old FAA clarification letters which I'll link to in a followup].

    TABS and 2020 Complaint 1090ES Out will provide long-range visibility of your glider to other gliders equipped with PowerFLARM.

    ADS-B OUT can also provide great visibility to GA aircraft, many or which are equipping with portable or fixed ADS-B In systems. Airliners, fast jet and lots of military aircraft already typically have TCAS (or IFF) which can detect Mode C and Mode S transponders without needing ADS-B. If you fly near busy traffic areas with airliners fast jets, or military traffic the priority should be installing a transponder, even an old Mode C transponder.

    ---

    So here are the different ADS-B Out options.... See a posting below on what benefits SIL=1 (TABS) and SIL=3 (2020 Compliant) installs provide.

    0 Experimental gliders can use a TT22 transponder and TN72 GPS to meet full 2020 ADS-B Out requirements. In this mode the TN-72 meets the requirements of 14 CFR 91.227 but is not an actual TSO'ed TSO-C145c GPS source normally required for ADS-B out in a type certified aircraft, but it's good enough for install in an experimental aircraft. These installations are done with the ADS-B Out system set to transmit SIL=3 (Source Integrity Level). You can't use a TN72 with a TT21 transponder to meet the 2020 ADS-B Out requirement because the TT21 does not meet ADS-B Out minimum power transmission requirements (a surprise the FAA lobbed at Trig after the TT21 was already for sale in the USA). An FAA ADS-B Out validation flight (see below) is not required to approve an install (there is no approval process in an experimental aircraft) but its a good idea to do that or any "2020 Compliant" ADS-B Out installation to check things are set up correctly.

    1. All gliders can install a TT21 or TT22 transponder with a TN72 used as a "TABS" (Traffic Awareness Beacon System) device. These installations cannot be used to comply with 2020 ADS-B Out mandates, so for example a glider equipped like that would not allow you to fly below 10,000' over Class C airspace after January 1, 2020. A TABS installation is done with the transponder transmitting SIL=1 (Source Integrity Level). Here the GPS is being installed as a TSO-C199 TSO'ed device... so technically it is TSO'ed if anybody anal-retentive wants to worry about that being installed in a certified aircraft/glider.

    2. Certified gliders that want to meet the 2020 ADS-B Out mandate can't use a TN72 for that, because it is not an actual TSO'ed TSO-C145c GPS source. They require a Trig TT22 transponder and TN70 actual TSO-C145c GPS source, which is more expensive than a TN72 at a bit below ~$2k, is a bit larger and consumes more power than a TN72. But is the way to go if you have a certified glider and need/want a 2020 Compliant ADS-B Out install. Those installs have SIL=3. ADS-B Out installation in a certified aircraft is a bit more involved, requires an A&P IA sign off, requires a notification only '337 sent to FAA HQ (not the local FSDO), requires use of an STC (available at no charge from Trig glider dealers), usually requires a verification flight, and requires use of a pressure switch/STC kit (~$125) for accurate air/ground status determination per the STC. This might seem like a lot but its really not, if you want to install a TN70 it is probably best probably best for your A&P IA to contact me (Darryl) and talk this though.

    3. In an experimental glider (and possibly type certified glider--if you find an A&P willing to sign off on it) you can in principle install any old GPS source you like, as long as you are not seeking to use that installation to comply with the 2020 ADS-B Out mandate requirements, and a long as you correctly set SIL=0 to describe the suckiness of that GPS source. But please uh, don't do this. Use the TN72 with at least SIL=1. A SIL=0 GPS Source sucks for 1090ES Out, it is visible to many portable ADS-B receivers, including PowerFLARM 1090ES In, but is NOT visible to ATC (except via SSR radar), is NOT visible to certified panel mount ADS-B In traffic systems, and will not make the aircraft an ADS-R or TIS-B client for ADS-B ground services (which PowerFLARM can't receive anyhow). It's just not worth it, get at least a TN72.

    ---

    ** All new installs of Trig transponders should be TT22, not a TT21, to give you maximum flexibility in future. Mid-Continent Trig's USA service partner can also upgrade a TT21 to TT22 for around $900. **

    Please don't install ADS-B UAT *Out* in gliders or towplanes, UAT Out is totally invisible to PowerFLARM, and should be discouraged anywhere near glider operations. UAT *In* systems are different, you might have a UAT In receiver or even better at dual-link (1090ES and UAT) ADS-B In system in your power aircraft or glider, for example to receive FIS-B TFR and weather data (I have a Stratux dual-link ADS-B receiver and Forefligth to play with this coming season... as well as PowerFLARM, that is all too unwieldy for most use, but hey I'm playing.).

    A great benefit for ADS-B Out is visibility to other traffic ADS-B In systems, especially the portable ADS-B In receivers becoming very popular in GA aircraft. That may be less of an benefit out of Williams than it is say at Byron and Hollister with their greater GA traffic levels.

    Be careful who you ask about ADS-B and for what purpose, many people, including FAA staff are likely to assume you are asking about systems that meet 2020 ADS-B Out mandate requirements, not TABS use, so things can get very confusing very quickly.

    For many owners I expect a TABS install may be all they want/require, so don't leap to think you must have a 2020 compliant install.

    Other installs with Trig transponders with other GPS scores are possible, both for experimental and certified gliders, but I would heavily discourage that, you want a simple as possible common install.

    ADS-B Out installations may require you upgrade firmware on your Trig transponder, TABS/SIL=1 use requires the TT21/TT22 has firmware 2.12 or higher, SIL=3/2020 compliant use requires firmware 2.7 or higher. Updating the firmware requires a (no charge besides shipping) return to the USA repair center, so start planning now if you are thinking you might want to do an install. If you work with Williams Soaring on an ADS-B out install I'm interested enough in all this that I'll help out you/Rex on any install setup, help with Trig, FAA questions, etc.

    And as mentioned a TT21 to TT22 upgrade is around $900 for pilots who may want to do that, any required firmware upgrade could be done at the same time.

    For either or both of these contact Mid Continent Instruments and Avionics, the Trig USA service partner. https://www.trig-avionics.com/support/u-s

    (And by PowerFLARM receiving 1090ES I obviously mean PowerFLARM units with the 1090ES In option, which all PowerFLARM systems sold in the USA have).
    Last edited by Darryl Ramm; 03-23-2018 at 11:28 AM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Palo Alto, CA
    Posts
    136

    Re: ADS-B Out Info -- think about ADS-B out installs over this Winter.

    I am also interested in anything glider pilots are doing with ADS-B In.

    I've just got a Stratux dual-link ADS-B receiver and am playing with that, with Foreflight and other software. My glider has PowerFLARM installed and the Stratux receiver is definitely *not* replacing that.

    I'm interested if other folk are playing with ADS-B In, say using that for things like FIS-B weather, TFR data, or traffic data etc.
    Darryl Ramm - ASH-26E - 6DX

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Palo Alto, CA
    Posts
    136

    Re: ADS-B Out Info -- think about ADS-B out installs over this Winter.

    Some useful links if you want to use the install for 2020 compliance (i.e. with SIL=3):

    The ADS-B Out validation flight profile details are in section 4.2 of AC20-165B https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/...AC_20-165B.pdf Read that but, don’t get worried by everything else, there is a lot of stuff in that AC for first time ADS-B approvals, that is not what you are doing... the install of a TN72 or TN70 with a TT22 is already approved, you still need to do the flight validation for your install however.

    Validation flight requests are here https://adsbperformance.faa.gov/PAPRRequest.aspx.

    There were reports of some GA pilots having problems with the ADS-B validation flight as a requirement for the ADS-B Out rebate program (that rebate program has ended) and there has been lots of advice on passing the validation flight, most of that seems to make sure you have a good GPS satellite fix behind take off and don’t screw up messing around with the transponder/ADS-B Out controls. E.g. see https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/...ssing-the-test

    The validation flight should be doable on a reasonable long/high aerotow, but we need to see some actually done.

    And again this is not required for a TABS/SIL=1 install.... but looking at a validation report may still be a good idea to satisfy yourself things are working OK, you may also get flagged as a non-2020 compliant system with SIL=1 and possibly contacted by the FAA. That is not an issue, it is nice to know they are watching all ADS-B installs/use as the industry struggles to get stuff right.
    Darryl Ramm - ASH-26E - 6DX

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    524

    Re: ADS-B Out Info -- think about ADS-B out installs over this Winter.

    Darryl,

    thanks for the very very helpful info and guidelines.
    I am in the process of adding TN72 to my TT21. I decided to keep the 21 for now and may upgrade to TT22 after 2020.
    I already shipped my transponder to Trig for the free firmware upgrade. Once I get it back I’ll have Rex add the TN72 which he already ordered.
    One question I have is how the SIL level is set. Is it automatic based on equipment, or is it configurable?

    Ramy

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Palo Alto, CA
    Posts
    136

    Re: ADS-B Out Info -- think about ADS-B out installs over this Winter.

    Ramy

    That is set in the TT21 or TT22 menus, Danny will find info as well in the TN72 install doc when he needs it. See https://www.trig-avionics.com/librar...n%20Manual.pdf.

    Make sure to be looking at current versions of docs for the TN72 and transponders.

    Nothing should be hard here, but stuff has to be done right. I expect/hope the FAA will pay attention to SIL=3 installs that do not have a validation flight submission, or SIL=1 or 3 that are transmitting obvious wrong stuff (aircraft/setup params not just position).

    Darryl

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Rio Vista, CA
    Posts
    65

    Re: ADS-B Out Info -- think about ADS-B out installs over this Winter.

    Thank you Darryl.
    I know it took a lot of time to put this together.
    It was very informative.

    Tom Jue

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Palo Alto, CA
    Posts
    136

    Re: ADS-B Out Info -- think about ADS-B out installs over this Winter.

    I've recently given a couple of talks to glider clubs/organizations. Which makes me want to advertise this again...

    For most glider pilots:

    Transponders: if you fly near airspace with lots of fast jets, airliners or military traffic (but check with the military ops if transponders will help with ATC, TCAS and IFF visibility).
    FLARM: if you fly mostly near other gliders.

    You may well want both the above tools. Then after that consider ADS-B Out.

    Buy if you have a Trig TT21 or TT22 transponder in your glider. Just go install a ~$350 Trig TN72 GPS source to get ADS-B Out, if your glider is type certified just do a TABS/SIL1 install, if expewrimental go one further and do a SIL=3/2020 Complaint install (it's not much more work). A TN72 for a TABS install with an existing TRIG transponder is a *very simple* install, and should only a log book entry for a certified glider.

    And this gives you the following benefits...

    SIL=1 (TABS) or SIL=3 (2020 Compliant) Install:

    Makes your glider visible to PowerFLARM (with the 1090ES In option... which almost all PowerFLARM in the USA have) at much longer range (like several tens of miles) than just relying on PowerFLARM to PowerFLARM visibility.

    Makes your glider visible to ADS-B In systems in GA aircraft. (Including certified ADS-B In systems that *cannot* see an ADS-B Out system that has just any random consumer quality GPS source connected).

    Makes your aircraft an ADS-B ground services client so that ADS-R and TIS-B data is broadcast for your glider. This is likely mostly of interest to pilots who want to fly with say a Stratus or Stratux ADS-B receiver and get all the ADS-B service goodness. (Today PowerFLARM cannot decode ADS-R or TIS-B data, but Flarm is very aware of this and looking at possible solutions).

    Extra Benefits of SIL=3 (2020 Compliant) Install:

    Provides flight privileges in airspace after January 1, 2020 where transponders are required today. Like in Class A, B, or C airspace or above Class B or C airspace up to 10,000'.

    Makes your glider visible to ATC where there is ADS-B ground services coverage but no SSR coverage. (Who knows if this might change in the long term future, but so far my checking is SIL=1 sources are not visible to ATC).

    SIL=1 (TABS) does not provide those airspace privileges or make your glider visible to ATC outside of SSR coverage areas. But since your glider has a transponder it is visible to ATC when within SSR coverage.
    Last edited by Darryl Ramm; 03-23-2018 at 10:35 AM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    524

    Re: ADS-B Out Info -- think about ADS-B out installs over this Winter.

    So I can confirm it works. Thanks to Rex who installed the TN72 and Darryl who configured it. Darryl could follow my flight from the ground with his Stratus ADS-B receiver. My ADS-B was also showing up on Powerflarm.
    Well worth the relatively small investment for those who already have a Trig transponder.

    Ramy

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Palo Alto, CA
    Posts
    136

    Re: ADS-B Out Info -- think about ADS-B out installs over this Winter.

    Name:  fullsizeoutput_3e0.jpg
Views: 1455
Size:  291.8 KB

    Thanks Ramy for being an early adopter of the TN72 and ADS-B Out with your Trig Transponder.

    And here is a screenshot of Ramy flying in wave on Sunday. This is Foreflight on an iPad being driven by a ~$200 Stratux ADS-B receiver just sitting inside the clubhouse area, and very similar to the portable ADS-B In systems used by many GA pilots... my reason for showing this. Ramy's glider is also visible to PowerFLARM (with the ADS-B In option) over much longer range than just using FLARM-FLARM. We need to do some airborne tests of that actual performance, but I expect several tens of miles.
    Darryl Ramm - ASH-26E - 6DX

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    524

    Re: ADS-B Out Info -- think about ADS-B out installs over this Winter.

    For those flying in the Maxwell MOA's and the surrounding area, you might find this educational.

    http://www.beale.af.mil/Portals/110/...-12-173229-600

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •