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Thread: Fly - Thursday 2-25-16

  1. #11
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    Re: Fly - Thursday 2-25-16 (and Friday)

    Just wanted to add to Peter's report for that day. I flew with the with the plan to follow Peter. He was a 1/2 hour ahead of me. However, taking in all the information while on tow to Tree Farm, questionable conditions, some discouraging radio reports of sink received on tow, another pilot turned back, and being a newbie with a new plane, I diverted to Walker as there appeared some wave forming there. I did hear Peter's report of climbing through 16K but I am still developing that skill/confidence level and by that time was committed to Walker. While I missed a great wave to 18K I found workable weak wave to 12.5K over north end of Walker towards Montgomery. Later, after gaining enough altitude I was headed towards Tree Farm in hopes of finding Peter. By that time, Peter was on his way south and the clouds of the approaching front were beginning to look ominous over Goat. I turned back towards Walker and decided to head to the Valley as the clouds around Walker/Bear Valley were developing quickly . All in all a great learning flight of 3 hours. I always appreciate the input and feedback received from the fellow pilots like Peter and of course Charlie. Thanks

    Jim

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  2. #12
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    Re: Fly - Thursday 2-25-16 (and Friday)

    Nice photos Jim. Sorry I scared you off. I'll explain that in my next post. I didn't say anything about turbulence... Only sink. I'm still waiting to hear from Russ, since he was first out there.

    Im at a loss to grasp your reluctance about staying on tow .As long as his motor is still turning, stay with the tow plane. You can always tell him to tow you home if you don't like things. He needs to return home anyway.

    I flew for over 4 hours and was never outside of glide distance back to WSC at any time. That. Includes my time over both Crazy Creek, Bessa Dam and Vacaville.
    Peter Kelly

  3. #13
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    Re: Fly - Thursday 2-25-16 (and Friday)


    The pre takeoff meeting with all 4 of us talking about landing techniques was enjoyable, with Franz telling us about the four patterns he had just flown.. You can never get enough practice in the pattern, that's for sure.


    I didn't mean to scare you off ... Telling about sink on tow between Indian and the Tree Farm. I was saying that for the benefit of Tow Pilot Tony, but I didn't hear him respond to my two calls to him , so I then addressed you, figuring that Tony was listening, but not talking. I think he has limited experience with mountain tows.

    Even my tow Pilot, Kerri had to take action to get through the sink. He powered up and was climbing at a better angle and we still couldn't get past about 5600 ft as we passed abeam crossroads.
    The stronger the sink became the more I was smiling! I knew it was going to be fantastic!!

    Peter Kelly

  4. #14
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    Re: Fly - Thursday 2-25-16 (and Friday)

    No, that alone didn't change my mind but combined with my other considerations, and this was Tony's first mountain tow for which he did a great job, I decided to play it conservative. I appreciated the in-flight update. Since it was predicted to be a weak day I was concerned that if I didn't find good lift over Tree Farm/Goat I would have to wrestle with getting back through the sink. Im still developing confidence in the Pegasus.That was the first good soaring day in it. Had I been in a 24 I would have had less reluctance. Later the concern became the clouds. As I finally was heading towards Goat the clouds were developing quickly and I turned around. When back over north end of bear valley that was all that was easily visible. East and west were both cloud banks that I couldn't seem to get high enough to get over. So I headed south until I saw an opening to the valley. That was my first wave experience with significant clouds. Had I more wave experience, I may have been able to find better lift. Post flight, Charlie gave me some pointers, always appreciated. I learned a lot from the flight and from the input from you experienced pilots, thanks.
    Jim

  5. #15
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    Re: Fly - Thursday 2-25-16 (and Friday)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Kelly View Post
    I'm still waiting to hear from Russ, since he was first out there.
    I was not going to post anything about my flight because no lift was found, but since Peter asked….The best lift shown on the RASP VV for 5000’ within reasonable towing range was near Montgomery and Indian Ranch. I launched about 1300 PST and towed toward 3 Sisters then a steering turn toward Montgomery in an attempt to contact the weak wave shown in this area on the Vertical Velocity 850 mb RASP forecast for 1400. Release at 7000 then shallow S turns searching for lift. The best I found was zero sink occasionally. Flight time 50 min.

    I considered another tow to Tree Farm to follow Peter, but the surface wind at WSC was 12 knots from SE which is beyond by comfort level for down wind T.O.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  6. #16
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    Re: Fly - Thursday 2-25-16 (and Friday)

    With the different pressure pattern below 4,000, as evidenced by wind shift below the inversion, you were having to deal with that intermittent tailwind takeoff...

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    and the other thing is the Wave had no support below 5,000, since the air was unstable down low. It's no wonder there was no secondary, etc. over Montgomery/ Indian.
    Or maybe, the convergence line was over optimistic on the 850 mb vv chart because the wind above it was increasing markedly, while the convergence in the BL below it couldn't produce the convection due to lack of hot sunshine.

    Russ, Where were you at 1:24 I have photos of the entire time from 1:24 onward. Send me your trace and I'll look for you in my photos. I suspect you crossed above me while I was towing out.


    Here is the first one:
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    The wave clouds were just starting to form about 1 PM.

    I looked through my films and couldn't see you.
    I never saw you on my FLARM, and by the time I passed overhead Indian I was at 5,500 and you still don't show up on my screen, so I suspect you were already back in the valley at 1.28- the time of this photo. As you can see there was good lift (85kts/ 300 to 500 fpm) over Indian but it was quickly followed by sink 2 0r 3 miles further west. Like I said we stayed below 5,700 ft for the next 5 miles after that.

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    Peter Kelly

  7. #17
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    Re: Fly - Thursday 2-25-16 (and Friday)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Kelly View Post
    Russ, Where were you at 1:24 I have photos of the entire time from 1:24 onward. Send me your trace and I'll look for you in my photos. I suspect you crossed above me while I was towing out.
    Peter, I would like to see some of your photographs. At 1:24 I was probably near Indian just after release at 7000. My flight was so short and uneventful I did not copy the log file, but I will next time I am at Williams and then send it to you.

  8. #18
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    Re: Fly - Thursday 2-25-16 (and Friday)

    Wave is where you find it, not necessarily where rasp says. I use rasp as a tool to predict if there will be wave, not where exactly. The rule of thumb with wave is simple, you tow up wind toward the highest terrain until you hit it. And if you hit strong sink first it is even a better indicator that the wave is upwind and you should stay on tow. If no wave found by the time you reached 1 mile or so downwind of the crest it may be time to release and head home or try something else.

    Ramy

  9. #19
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    Re: Fly - Thursday 2-25-16 (and Friday)

    Quote Originally Posted by Russ Pillard View Post
    Peter, I would like to see some of your photographs. At 1:24 I was probably near Indian just after release at 7000. My flight was so short and uneventful I did not copy the log file, but I will next time I am at Williams and then send it to you.
    Like I said Russ, your FLARM does not appear on my screen in any of my photos, so I think we weren't close enough to see each other. I take it you never saw me, and I never saw you either.
    It'll be interesting to play the traces together and see if I can pick you out in the photos - if we were ever close.
    My photos are two seconds apart, so I have LOTS of photos, so no sense putting too many on here..

    Here are a couple of samplers to show you the clouds.
    I was orbiting over St John for a while while we tried to open the wave window, but it was pretty boring holding a speed above 80 knots to stay below 18,000. I flew out of the lift a bit so that I didn't have to fly any faster.(BTW, Vne in the ASW24 is about 30 knots above that, so no worry there.)


    The local time:
    three photos: 2:10a, and 2:10b, and 2:13a - at 15,700 over T Farm looking north at Snow Mtn

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    Peter Kelly

  10. #20
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    Re: Fly - Thursday 2-25-16 (and Friday)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Kelly View Post
    Like I said Russ, your FLARM does not appear on my screen in any of my photos, so I think we weren't close enough to see each other. I take it you never saw me, and I never saw you either.
    It'll be interesting to play the traces together and see if I can pick you out in the photos - if we were ever close.
    Peter, I never saw another glider on the flight and I don't think that FLARM in OJ was working that day. The little "fc" on the ClearNav was red whenever I looked at it.

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